Title:: Conversations With Indy Johar: Conversation Five
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mutually assured destruction or mutually assured thriving fork (View Highlight)
crisises are going to shatter Overton Windows of the of the current perceptual norms and those Chings of Overton windows will make
things that are currently perceived as unperceivable impossible improbable open up Windows for realities that we have not imagined (View Highlight)
Note: Crises opens up possibility spaces, imagination, miracle. fleeting-note
maybe the
solution or a pathway to a solution is not a two-state solution but actually a genuine on state solution in Israel and Palestine and saying actually building a deep democracy for all people which actually unfolds the capacity of all of humanity at the sight of three religions and a new theory of governance erupting in that in that cauldron of of disagreement (View Highlight)
Note: Synthesis or new possibility in the Israeli Pakistan Conflict. Through the crisis is a new governance model possible or even discussible fleeting-note
it's difficult to both say those words in moments like this as well but it's also some aspect of responsibility to to open up Horizons that are perceived as unperceivable (View Highlight)
Note: Role of the heretical (referenced later) is to open up overton window fleeting-note
so it is in fact with Mortal seriousness that I say that it will take a miracle because that's where we are we're in the moment where we have to actually step into the space from which the miraculous occurs (View Highlight)
start to build theories of Property Wars in a way these are land and resource Wars that are being fought out and that they they are archaic in nature um and actually they set forth with the availability of weapons of sort of the the
distributed production of weapons of mass destruction we know for example you know was it a piece of AI technology was able to uncover something like 60 different ways chemical weapons (View Highlight)
Note: If we extrapolate from the signal of the proliferation of distributed technology for making weapons, our capacity for violent eruptions is increasing and therefore we may see more property and resource wars. fleeting-note
times of great Darkness also shift the Overton window of the acceptable and the possible and make Miracles plausible and I think that's where I see hope when alliances and possibilities that have not been possible suddenly become plausible and if you and I Can Dream dreams
we're not special they're there in the Z gist and they can be down by other people there are possibility spaces that are that are drawable (View Highlight)
Note: Although these topics seem radical, the fact that we discuss it means they are in the zeitgeist. fleeting-note
we already saw glassier flood in India if we start to lose critical glaciers in the Himalayas we are going to lose predictable water systems for 3 billion people M so if you look at the scale of the crisis that that
drives that's going to require us to reimagine the governance at the Nexus of India Pakistan and China right yes a pathway to reimagining governance imagine suddenly when these three nations have to think about the future from the idea of collectively governing the Himalayas so suddenly it's a mutually it's it's it's a mutual NE necessity not a desire (View Highlight)
Note: Glaciers are melting, and one can imagine a shared governance structure of the Himalayas between the countries that border it: China, Nepal, India, Pakistan fleeting-note
every technique that we built and technology that we built we've been regressively held back by theories of of capital and it is Manifest in all our techniques and that I think is Moco whichever greed game you want to play out it's manifesting it's like a DNA replicating through (View Highlight)
Note: Moloch and game theory value systems have replicated throughout our entire structure of technology. fleeting-note
I think two three talks
back about you know how a theory of capital allocation say to machine learning is about building the asset of machine learning not necessarily building the machine human synthesis capabilities which would be a completely different theory of asset because the asset wouldn't be a capitalizable divisible asset of the single computational capability of a brand it would be a didactic asset which is completely different (View Highlight)
Note: We are building a centralized machine learning capability instead of a distributed human-machine synthesis capability. We are building a piece of capital instead of a system that is didactic: values teaching and development. fleeting-note
our theories of
capital are building a very particular type of extractive and I think it is extractive so this is a mind mind asset we've gone from mining minerals to mining forests and ecological systems to mining ecological services to mining human Minds um and these are mined assets they're extractive assets they're not symbiotic assets not they're not generative assets (View Highlight)
Note: machine learning is another form of extractive capitalism (mining) fleeting-note
imagine how agressive a theory of seeing humans as units of Labor is as a conceptual idea in a technological landscape where the human contribution can never be reduced to a unit or labor because we're an embodied intelligence which is embodied being a being of becoming which is a developmental being (View Highlight)
Note: We operate on a regressive theory of economics where humans are defined as units of labor, instead of a truth that humans are infinite potential. fleeting-note
humans as developmental learning furling beings of becomings and Inter beings we just don't have it and this has been and you know this goes back to conversations that we've had that I I think this goes back to one in a 400y Year Revolution of how we've imagined ourselves and imagined our relationship to the planet and that lock in that we've got that conceptual lock
we haven't been able to break (View Highlight)
Note: We are in a 400 year revolution that requires unshackling previous paradigms of what it is to be human. fleeting-note
we're very much living in a deeply Undead present one that should have passed away when I was young and mostly only tiny tiny slivers of the future have been able to manifest and almost all of those have become corrupted by the past's um value structures and institutional Frameworks (View Highlight)
Note: The present structures (institutions) and ways of thinking are very much dead and have no future. And only slivers or seedlings of the future have been able to be visible, which can be attributed to the capture of previous ethical and economical value frameworks (labor, capital, development, domination). fleeting-note
in the inner periphery economies we're going to move towards resource back currencies that could be Timber there could be aluminium there could be gold there could be whole bunch of resource back systems that are going to create liquidity so we're going to move and you're going to see the shock wavs because we're so dependent on the resources we're going to see the shift strategic shift in currencies driven through crisis through a failure of a Global Currency (View Highlight)
how do we radically shift our Rel our theory of monetary production from way from centralized systems to a whole new ecological system and those chatterings are going to open up those windows and the question is do they become regressive which in history by the way in every one of these shocks not everyone in a vast majority of the shocks these become what I would call disaster Capital disaster Power Systems
I.E they become concentrations of power concentrations of capital they concentrate they become but there are moments where they don't do that and those moments are extraordinary they are your Miracle moments they don't concentrate (View Highlight)
Note: Crises can easily create fodder for disaster capitalism / shock doctrine. Gives people in power the necessary permission to move in and concentrate power. However, sometimes there are miracle moments. fleeting-note
set the course for a new developmental pathway so the question for us is in those crisises can we be prepared to
fracture these windows in some form of pathway that unfurls the human capacity and those moments are going to be precious (View Highlight)
how to tune in and listen and then when the KY right when the moment emerges the
ability to rapidly spontaneously form the the shape of the hyper conversation into something that can go that can move towards the highest possibility grab as much ground as it can grab (View Highlight)
I agree that there is no centralized pathway for dealing with complexity it's an informational it's an informational impossibility which is why centralized
Comm communism could never work against the theory of markets because it was a computational problem they could never solve the computational problem of predicting complex systems centrally fast enough relative to a market so people often talk about ideological issues I just want to talk about the informational complexity issues and that's why centralization can't deliver (View Highlight)
we have to talk about a human developmental Revolution as a precursor for and it's not sorry human it's agent development Revolution it's every agent human non-human machine systems every agent we've got to nurture in a completely different way in order to get to that decentralization (View Highlight)
the kind of strategic shift we're doing is moving from theories of control orientation centralized control orientation to learning developmental orientation and that is not only for humans it's humans machines ecological systems all of these things are moving towards a human develop sort of learning developmental pathway which means our theories of orchestration and is no longer driven through instruct ability
but learnability in the system and that is a parad we've built and what's beautiful and I think this is genuinely beautiful is that we are building the learning capacity of our non-human systems machine learning it's not artificial intelligence machine learning which and I think that is a paradigm leap in our theory of bureaucracy because it's no longer about if this then that it's actually some form of computational learning capacity which is a bureaucratic Revolution (View Highlight)
now we can make agent-based learning orientated systems a plur verse of those systems that doesn't drive centralization and this is why I think our current machine learning which is largely centralized largely sort of through a single agent model is actually just a false storm it's a kind of mirror of the as you were rightly saying lock into a 19th century worldview rather than actually a
different developmental path and that I think is where hope starts to lie (View Highlight)
all of these capacities are ambient they're not they're actually a better description of how reality really is and we put tremendous effort in trying to treat humans as if they're not developmental right um and and therefore the the reality of they're having a developmental learning capacity built in becomes a problem to solve right how do we keep these humans from creating new Pathways when we're trying to keep the system very static and not changing so that we can manage it (View Highlight)
simultaneously taking maximum advantage of the learning capacity of the individuals and agents and meta agents that are involved in them as well as furthers them right so every interaction is a is a learning interaction (View Highlight)
in every human interaction right when I'm talking to you I'm growing you're growing right we are growing and that creates so we're not it's not entropic we're not locked into into a thermodynamic collapse we're actually in a completely different syntropic domain (View Highlight)
locked into nutonian theories of seeing things in a world viiew which just don't mirror actually what what developmental models look like and I think when we start to look at that I think it opens up a completely different uh necessity and possibility and this is where I you know this is the Nexus of deep hope (View Highlight)
what we're living in is zombie IE it is dead already yeah the courage to admit that you know the courage to admit that if
you crystallize the risks of climate change on your balance sheet you're not standing you're already dead the courage to recognize that (View Highlight)
we perceive the risk in trying something new but that's only because we think the present is alive if we thought the present is already dead then actually the the risk of not doing is much greater much much greater (View Highlight)
psychologically and linguistically were captured by noun and property thinking right so theories of property which in order for something to be property it has to be bounded and in order for something to be property it has to be
enslaved and in order for prop something to have property it has to give me rights I it's asymmetric it's not rights and responsibilities it's rights so and if we then look at that through Labor Theory or if we look at that through any other Theory we see we've constructed a world viw on this deadening this ounding bounding this deadening and asymmetric enslavement of things which if you conceive the world through that then you're right we've already we have to
pre-kill the world (View Highlight)
it's the courage as you rightly say to be the Heretics of today right so when you know somebody when they sort of said right the Sun Goes Around um sun goes around the earth to actually we go around the Sun uh that was a heretical thing because it shifted our theory of power (View Highlight)
the courage that's needed in the everyday that's the courage to see the world as dead when it could be alive the courage to actually unleash the full capacity of Being Human the courage to see actually machines not through an othered landscape and a kind
of a sort of an asset Theory but a developmental Theory these are completely different paradigms of civilization and I think what I find hopeful is that those Futures knock at us they're no longer they're no longer dreams of Science Fiction actually they they're literally knocking at our Windows inviting us into beings (View Highlight)
I think this is a real challenge for all of us as we see the horrors
unfold in different formats and how can we how do we preserve our humanity and expand our Humanity not diminish our Humanity not be inflicted by a trauma to actually regress in our care and our love but to be invited to see through the open window for a radical possibility (View Highlight)
the context we find ourselves is the it's the inescapable training ground we are are going to be faced with
Horrors so do we find ourselves becoming horrible as a consequence (View Highlight)
when we look at the idea that say in 40 years Humanity could unleash
Infinite Energy within the next 40 years it is plausible if we don't mutually destroy ourselves we release Infinite Energy Systems relative to our current situation thorium reactors we unlock our whole energy but in order to make it through to that degree of system level energy abundance we have to go through these developmental
arcs to be able to live to be able to take constraints to find abundances to be able to build the psychology not of individually but the psychology of abundance of care in the moments of trauma maybe these are moment developmental moments of us as a civilization as well that actually if we can deal with this then we can deal with abundance because otherwi wise abundance will be self-terminating in its own way (View Highlight)
the metaphor of the individual who wins the lottery and then destroys thems is is common place right and this is for sure the case so if we accidentally find our way of surviving until we've created so much capacity that we kill ourselves that way that's not really particularly good way of getting there we need to grow right we need to grow into this capacity (View Highlight)
I think things will evolve at rates because I think as you rightly said we've been held back and as shackles break boom you're we're going to see these and I think the crisis they're going to open up these windows and it'll take one two suddenly we'll start to see
effervescence of possibilities erupt because as you rightly say the moment demands it and I I kind of almost believe that that I think moments demand like the moments construct the genius the situation invites the genius because it creates the possibility to see in another way (View Highlight)
think it's not going to
be the prevention of a great leader standing forward and say I see the future and thereby I I hereby write the future I think it will be we will learn in crisis and transition and crisis and transition and if we can maintain not being traumatized and regressive in our developmental human development Pathways and not succumb to anger not succumb to the vices and the system that then opens us up and that is a really powerful
invitation right now and that's not just for humans it's humans and our institutional machines (View Highlight)
this conversations exists at the intersection of multiple knowledge bases (View Highlight)
I think part of these discussions is to build shared literacy you know shared comprehension and critique (View Highlight)
I was at sort of a inner development goals conference that was a looking about inner development goals as a as a relationship to to um sustainable development goals and talk about as a Counterpoint and the thing that Stu stuck me struck me
was the lack of people like that operate in the interseal knowledge you have a lot of people that talk about the inner development without understanding the technological development capabilities without understanding I theories of property and orchestration capacities and bureaucratic systems and and that a limiter right that's a limiter that's a rate transition limiter right now (View Highlight)
capital allocation mechanisms resource only
things that are highly legible um and that creates a pathway towards I mean just think about it just very simple right somewhere at 17 18 you start getting put from being uh being able to walk around to getting on a train right your ability to move through a space that is an open fluid space is (View Highlight)
you begin to learn how to do the abstra actions of being able to actually see the patterns that are mechanism independent notice how you can rotate something go oh wow this was developed
in economics but look what happens if you flip it over here and put it into ecology or vice versa and bringing them into relationship (View Highlight)
you worked at the insection of all sorts of other capabilities political referencing and sort of to governments that gives you a type of intersexual knowledge not as a just a descriptive knowledge but a craft tactical knowledge inter this requires the com and it also requires a philosophical scaffolding to craft knowledge kind of you know to use Pini a moment of philosopher makers philosopher Crafts People (View Highlight)
you will need to have a robust capacity to have highly rapid absorption of embodied learning it' be a requisite necessity the the expertise will be absurd uh you'll have to actually have a completely different character uh being able to enter into novelty into a new environment and be comfortable with it so that you can just grow into it because literally every encounter you have will be of that
sort a powerful invitation (View Highlight)
unemployment figures it's it's a very reductive thesis of a population it's the instrumental function of a population and imagine a whole new characteristic of describing what it means to be part of a of a civilization
and I think this is this is the capture point that you talked about in my view Jordan like this regressive capture point which is which is actually holding us back into 19th century kind of Labor instrumentalization of Being Human and I think until we break that and we can open up new language I think we're we're captured (View Highlight)
everybody's in some position of responsibility and the invitation at the bottom is to enter into to those relationships of care and and and to reconnect with the the richness even just the sac like the
sacredness of of the things with which you are in relationship the people around you the land around you the objects around you just reconnect with that and and begin to propagate that as a language as an aesthetic an aesthetic of taking reality as sacred as a fundamental assumption (View Highlight)
